Financial experts are seeing a spike in affluent working Americans looking to resettle in Europe. They say it's time for Europe to prepare for their arrival.
Frontex literally sends them back to get raped & tortured and literally is the reason thousands per year drown in the Mediterranean Sea. We hate migrants, that is a European core value.
Not convinced? After 2nd world war, Germans even hated German refugees. Since then, migrants in Western/Northern Europe have been 2nd class citizens. Brexit went through partly as a campaign against migrants from Poland & Romania.
Still not convinced? It’s not about cultural compatibility or religion or skin color or anything. Ukrainian refugees have been met with empathy because of their skin color and religion at first (but we‘re _ definitely_ not racist and sorry for saying the quiet part out loud). However, in countries like Poland, Hungary and Germany who took on most of the refugees politicians already started using Ukrainians as scapegoats and the hate mongering hit them too.
Think it will be different with Americans? They’re gonna be the ones who took our jobs, always act entitled, destroy our work culture by always being available and ruining the housing market (as if that weren’t already fucked up). To an extent, this is how we see Americans already.
We are a racist, backwards continent. I wish it were different, but this is who we are.
Yeah totally agree. The problem is there was no more outrage because we normalized hating refugees and migrants so much that there wasn’t even a debate or anything anymore, everyone was just rolling with it.
And truly. Having frontier control and regulations is not even bad.
Also, most Europeans are not racist. Your analysis on why Ukrainian refugees are treated differently than syrian refugees (for instance) is incredibly shallow. As people take in consideration a lot more things when judging a person, and attributing it to skin color is just to make yourself a nice strawman to attack.
It’s perfectly valid to be able to have control on who you want to share your life with, as it will wildly influence your own life and well being.
I honestly made an argument using facts to back it up ,and your reaction so far has been whataboutism and deflection. I’m also not sure how exactly you would argue against this when most European countries have right wing (extremist) governments right now and do I really have to explain that a core feature of right wingers is to hate immigrants?
The fact that you just said that MOST european countries have extremist right wing governments just said everything that needs to be said. And how you generalize to everyone who vote for any right or centrist party without even care for their reasons to do so…
Also systematic downvoting every comment of anyone not agreeing with you shows a specific character trait.
Is the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies a bucket list for you?
If everything I’m saying is so obviously wrong it should be super easy to make a sound argument against mine instead of just trying to derail the discussion.
Is the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies a bucket list for you?
@daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com Ftr, the rules of this community specifically say not to do this. I am leaving this entire thread here, because I think @shaserlark did a great job – but let me emphasize that institutionalized racism is not good and you rushing to defend it here is not good either.
I take you are a mod, my app doesn’t show mods of communities for some reason.
Just a fair and square question. As you quote the fallacy thing.
And please be sincere. As it would be very important for my continuity in this community even in lemmy as a whole.
Why my supposed fallacies are being judged here but not his? He made fallacies also. Are the fallacies on the question or it’s the opinion?
Can anything be debated here? As in would you allow opinions that are different than yours on the slightest?
Because at no point I defended any kind of racism, not institutionalized not anything. It would be irrational, as I’m clearly against racism, I consider racism something terrible thus why I get offended when not racist people get accused of being racist.
You clearly agree with the other part. Are you giving me heat because of that? If so please I need a list of what can be said exactly in this community.
Because I would defend in from of a judge with a cristaline conscience, that migration or border policies different from completely open borders are not racism. And that I don’t think the European Union have racist policies written in their law with the purpose of putting people down for their race. Quite the contrary I think the European Union have done wonders integrating races, and teaching everyone here not to be racist through incredible programs and policies with foreign countries (including the mentioned refugee programs) and forcing eu members to remove any racial law from their legislation.
If even that sentence cannot be debated here, please let me know. And put it more clear in the rules to which political party do you need to be affiliated to be allowed to post here.
Because calling the EPP or Renew Europe racist just because (and you say nothing about that) feels completely antieuropean. And I don’t even vote for those parties, btw (I don’t vote), but it hurts me very much when radicalization demonize normal people that may vote or belong to a party for whatever reason.
That’s my two cents, from here do what you want to do.
Have a good day.
This will be my last contribution to this community at least from a while. I don’t think this particular moderation action was well done or contributive to the benefit of the community or Lemmy as a whole, sorry. If you don’t agree with me you could argue with me as a normal user, same as I have done with the other person, with arguments from both sides, each one giving our opinion, which are normal, either of us are defending anything bad, we just disagree on what consists a racist policy, or what European border and immigration policies should be better. I think both me and the other user (and you) agree on all humans being born equal with the same fundamental rights. But confronting a normal opinion with moderative actions from a moderator account is not great.
And just some final though. I think it’s disheartening that more and more it feels like you need to have a very specific political affiliation to participate in Lemmy in general. You are free to look at my posts, here in c/europe and in many other communites, I think my political affiliation is very clear from what I write. And see what kind of policial ideas have a person that more and more feels uncomfortable here.
I’m sorry if this comment read angry or heated. But you must understand that in this space you are the authority, and it’s not the same being confronted from equal to equal any difference of opinion we could have (that’s why we are here to read what other people have to say) than to be confronted by moderation. If from your heart you really think that this moderation was needed because I, and only I, broke the rules and not because your own opinions made you make this action so be it. But from my opinion the authority broke the neutrality needed for good moderation here.
I would and I will. But I have little hopes for a rational discussion.
European are not racists. If white people would come by sea in the same conditions as african people come they would face the same fate. The prove to this argument have two evidences. Black people migrating from America does not face those issues. And white people immigrating from south America do face integration issues.
Also while being both white Ukrainian migrants tend to face way different inclusion issues than Romanian immigrants.
There are none racial laws whatsoever in europe and have not been for ages. This is not one of those countries that have actual racism written in the law of have had it until very recently.
So it’s clear and evident that race or skin color is not of relevance for European people when they chose if they want to be welcoming to someone or not.
And not wanting fully open borders does not make anyone racist or a extremist. Many would argue that open borders is actually an extremist political view. And the moderate approach is border control. Having completely closed borders is the other extremist approach that is evidently not being implemented not even proposed, by any european government.
Also by every definition of extremist right wing, we could not consider most european governments as such. As most of them fall under one of three groups. S&D moderate left, EPP moderate right and Renew Europe, centre-right. Most governments are lead from a prime minister of one of those groups. None of which is extreme right. There are very few european countries actually lead by extremists. And there’s no evidence whatsoever that people who vote for Renew or EPP (I don’t know if you even include S&D as right wing extremist, I wouldn’t be surprised) are racists, or have racism as a core trait of their politics. As racism is not in their parties manifestos, politics, or campaigns.
I would say your entire argument is based on an approach where you create a definition of racism that’s extremely narrow and then claim it doesn’t exist in Europe because it doesn’t meet your specific criteria.
Frontex literally pushes people back at sea where they drown, sends people to places where they’re tortured and raped, and we collectively allow this to happen. That’s institutionalized racism whether you like it or not.
Your claim that “if white people came by sea they’d face the same fate” is a hypothetical that can’t be verified - it’s a classic counterfactual fallacy. The reality is that we don’t see masses of white people drowning in the Mediterranean while the EU turns a blind eye.
You’re also trying to define racism only as “racial laws” which is an incredibly narrow definition that no sociologist would accept. Structural racism manifests in policies, practices, and institutions - it doesn’t require explicit “whites only” signs to exist.
Regarding Ukrainian refugees versus other refugee groups: initially there was indeed more acceptance based on perceived cultural similarity and yes, race. But as I already mentioned, even Ukrainian refugees are now being scapegoated by politicians in Poland, Hungary and other countries. The pattern is clear - initial acceptance followed by growing hostility.
The European Parliament groupings you mention are irrelevant to my argument. I was clearly talking about national politics where far-right parties have either gained power or significant influence in Hungary, Italy, Austria, Sweden, Netherlands, France and Germany among others.
Your attempt to frame this as “open borders extremism” versus “moderate border control” is a classic false dichotomy. There’s a massive difference between reasonable border management and letting people drown at sea, which is what Frontex does.
I stand by what I said - Europe has deeply ingrained xenophobia, and Americans coming here will discover that too once the novelty wears off. They’ll be blamed for housing problems, job market issues, and changing the culture - just like every other immigrant group before them.
Do I wish there was a better way for people to seek asylum? Absolutely.
There was talk about setting up centers in some northern african countries to let people apply without crossing the Med. Don’t know if that happened yet though. Sounds like a reasonable idea to me.
And I seriously doubt that Frontex “sends them back to get raped & tortured”. If they knew that was going to happen they’re not allowed to.
Brexit was a Russia sponsored fluke. I’m not saying there aren’t people using migrants as scapegoats for everything, but they’re a minority, but as times gets tougher I get how migrants gets blamed. It’s hard to help someone when you barely got enough for yourself.
About the americans, they would by what’s commonly referred to as “high value migrants”, meaning educated and experienced, someone who can go more or less directly into productive work. That’s the kind of migrant every country on earth wants. Those are the kind of workers that helps grow the economy.
As a continent I think we’re very far from both racist and backwards. Yes, there are those elements among us, but for the most part we’re decent people. We make mistakes and stumble, but we’re generally doing the right thing. I have fatih in us.
The part of brexit is manifestly not true. Brexit is a US invention, the far right from the US banked the whole thing. Case in point, Steve Banon and Cambridge analytica. Allowing US companies to run our digital life is the biggest mistake of the european civilization, and now that civilization is at risk, threatened by a raging jingoistic maniac.
I’d say both. There were absolutely Russian money involved in brexit. By saying this I’m in no way denying US far-right involvement. I don’t think it was state-sponsored from the US though. I 100% believe it was when it comes to Russia.
I have very little doubt it was state sponsored. There has been ample evidence there is an interest from the US to make the EU a vassal region again, regardless of who is president. Starting with spying on allies with the help of DK to AUKUS, to fast tracking a war in our region to stop our only de facto dependence on them, hydrocarbons, from being made redundant. The EU is leading the world in renewable energy, but we can’t have that, because the only coercive lever after that is direct conflict. In fact, there’s ample evidence Biden and Bojo chose to prolong the UA war with empty promises to Zelensky that are now being paid in blood. The purpose of that is obvious, when you ask qui bono. Putin didn’t want NATO at his door, RU & the US didn’t want UA in the EU, so here we are. Had UA entered the EU, the supply of hydrocarbons from RU and US would have been made redundant enough given UA has reserved estimated to be enough to support the EU energy transition to renewables independently.
Maybe? But there’s no evidence of US-government tampering with the brexit referendum, but there is for the Russian government.
I’m not going to defend the US, certainly not currently, but I’d like to see evidence before accusing the US of something.
They’ve done plenty of shady stuff, so there’s no shortage of things to blame them for, but so far I haven’t seen any evidence of US state sponsored brexit shenanigans.
I think your view is a bit optimistic - centers in North Africa won’t fix the systemic issues with our border policies. Frontex absolutely does send people back to places where they face torture and sexual violence. They’ve been repeatedly documented performing illegal pushbacks in the Mediterranean and the Aegean.
They’re actively pushing people back to Libya where EU-funded detention centers are effectively torture camps. And Frontex continues illegal pushbacks regularly despite court rulings against them.
I understand wanting to believe we’re better than this, but the facts don’t support it. The “we’re decent people making mistakes” narrative is comforting but doesn’t hold up when you look at the policies we collectively support through our governments.
About the “high value migrants” thing - that’s exactly my point about how our immigration system works. We welcome people based on economic utility, not humanitarian need. We’ll roll out the red carpet for an American engineer but let Syrian doctors drown.
And this economic utility approach is still fragile - when the economy turns, even the “high value” migrants become scapegoats. Just look at how Brexit campaigns targeted Polish doctors and Eastern European professionals despite their contributions.
Frontex literally sends them back to get raped & tortured and literally is the reason thousands per year drown in the Mediterranean Sea. We hate migrants, that is a European core value.
Not convinced? After 2nd world war, Germans even hated German refugees. Since then, migrants in Western/Northern Europe have been 2nd class citizens. Brexit went through partly as a campaign against migrants from Poland & Romania.
Still not convinced? It’s not about cultural compatibility or religion or skin color or anything. Ukrainian refugees have been met with empathy because of their skin color and religion at first (but we‘re _ definitely_ not racist and sorry for saying the quiet part out loud). However, in countries like Poland, Hungary and Germany who took on most of the refugees politicians already started using Ukrainians as scapegoats and the hate mongering hit them too.
Think it will be different with Americans? They’re gonna be the ones who took our jobs, always act entitled, destroy our work culture by always being available and ruining the housing market (as if that weren’t already fucked up). To an extent, this is how we see Americans already.
We are a racist, backwards continent. I wish it were different, but this is who we are.
Those are right wingers and other people on russian payroll, in whose main interest it is to make people hate Ukkranians.
Yeah totally agree. The problem is there was no more outrage because we normalized hating refugees and migrants so much that there wasn’t even a debate or anything anymore, everyone was just rolling with it.
Removed by mod
Other places bad isn’t really an excuse for us to suck as well
Not bad. Infinitely worse.
And truly. Having frontier control and regulations is not even bad.
Also, most Europeans are not racist. Your analysis on why Ukrainian refugees are treated differently than syrian refugees (for instance) is incredibly shallow. As people take in consideration a lot more things when judging a person, and attributing it to skin color is just to make yourself a nice strawman to attack.
It’s perfectly valid to be able to have control on who you want to share your life with, as it will wildly influence your own life and well being.
I honestly made an argument using facts to back it up ,and your reaction so far has been whataboutism and deflection. I’m also not sure how exactly you would argue against this when most European countries have right wing (extremist) governments right now and do I really have to explain that a core feature of right wingers is to hate immigrants?
You facts:
-People racists because I said so.
The fact that you just said that MOST european countries have extremist right wing governments just said everything that needs to be said. And how you generalize to everyone who vote for any right or centrist party without even care for their reasons to do so… Also systematic downvoting every comment of anyone not agreeing with you shows a specific character trait.
There’s nothing to argue here. That’s my bad.
Have a good day.
Is the Wikipedia article on logical fallacies a bucket list for you?
If everything I’m saying is so obviously wrong it should be super easy to make a sound argument against mine instead of just trying to derail the discussion.
@daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com Ftr, the rules of this community specifically say not to do this. I am leaving this entire thread here, because I think @shaserlark did a great job – but let me emphasize that institutionalized racism is not good and you rushing to defend it here is not good either.
I take you are a mod, my app doesn’t show mods of communities for some reason.
Just a fair and square question. As you quote the fallacy thing.
And please be sincere. As it would be very important for my continuity in this community even in lemmy as a whole.
Why my supposed fallacies are being judged here but not his? He made fallacies also. Are the fallacies on the question or it’s the opinion?
Can anything be debated here? As in would you allow opinions that are different than yours on the slightest?
Because at no point I defended any kind of racism, not institutionalized not anything. It would be irrational, as I’m clearly against racism, I consider racism something terrible thus why I get offended when not racist people get accused of being racist.
You clearly agree with the other part. Are you giving me heat because of that? If so please I need a list of what can be said exactly in this community.
Because I would defend in from of a judge with a cristaline conscience, that migration or border policies different from completely open borders are not racism. And that I don’t think the European Union have racist policies written in their law with the purpose of putting people down for their race. Quite the contrary I think the European Union have done wonders integrating races, and teaching everyone here not to be racist through incredible programs and policies with foreign countries (including the mentioned refugee programs) and forcing eu members to remove any racial law from their legislation.
If even that sentence cannot be debated here, please let me know. And put it more clear in the rules to which political party do you need to be affiliated to be allowed to post here.
Because calling the EPP or Renew Europe racist just because (and you say nothing about that) feels completely antieuropean. And I don’t even vote for those parties, btw (I don’t vote), but it hurts me very much when radicalization demonize normal people that may vote or belong to a party for whatever reason.
That’s my two cents, from here do what you want to do.
Have a good day.
This will be my last contribution to this community at least from a while. I don’t think this particular moderation action was well done or contributive to the benefit of the community or Lemmy as a whole, sorry. If you don’t agree with me you could argue with me as a normal user, same as I have done with the other person, with arguments from both sides, each one giving our opinion, which are normal, either of us are defending anything bad, we just disagree on what consists a racist policy, or what European border and immigration policies should be better. I think both me and the other user (and you) agree on all humans being born equal with the same fundamental rights. But confronting a normal opinion with moderative actions from a moderator account is not great.
And just some final though. I think it’s disheartening that more and more it feels like you need to have a very specific political affiliation to participate in Lemmy in general. You are free to look at my posts, here in c/europe and in many other communites, I think my political affiliation is very clear from what I write. And see what kind of policial ideas have a person that more and more feels uncomfortable here.
I’m sorry if this comment read angry or heated. But you must understand that in this space you are the authority, and it’s not the same being confronted from equal to equal any difference of opinion we could have (that’s why we are here to read what other people have to say) than to be confronted by moderation. If from your heart you really think that this moderation was needed because I, and only I, broke the rules and not because your own opinions made you make this action so be it. But from my opinion the authority broke the neutrality needed for good moderation here.
I would and I will. But I have little hopes for a rational discussion.
European are not racists. If white people would come by sea in the same conditions as african people come they would face the same fate. The prove to this argument have two evidences. Black people migrating from America does not face those issues. And white people immigrating from south America do face integration issues.
Also while being both white Ukrainian migrants tend to face way different inclusion issues than Romanian immigrants.
There are none racial laws whatsoever in europe and have not been for ages. This is not one of those countries that have actual racism written in the law of have had it until very recently.
So it’s clear and evident that race or skin color is not of relevance for European people when they chose if they want to be welcoming to someone or not.
And not wanting fully open borders does not make anyone racist or a extremist. Many would argue that open borders is actually an extremist political view. And the moderate approach is border control. Having completely closed borders is the other extremist approach that is evidently not being implemented not even proposed, by any european government.
Also by every definition of extremist right wing, we could not consider most european governments as such. As most of them fall under one of three groups. S&D moderate left, EPP moderate right and Renew Europe, centre-right. Most governments are lead from a prime minister of one of those groups. None of which is extreme right. There are very few european countries actually lead by extremists. And there’s no evidence whatsoever that people who vote for Renew or EPP (I don’t know if you even include S&D as right wing extremist, I wouldn’t be surprised) are racists, or have racism as a core trait of their politics. As racism is not in their parties manifestos, politics, or campaigns.
I would say your entire argument is based on an approach where you create a definition of racism that’s extremely narrow and then claim it doesn’t exist in Europe because it doesn’t meet your specific criteria.
Frontex literally pushes people back at sea where they drown, sends people to places where they’re tortured and raped, and we collectively allow this to happen. That’s institutionalized racism whether you like it or not.
Your claim that “if white people came by sea they’d face the same fate” is a hypothetical that can’t be verified - it’s a classic counterfactual fallacy. The reality is that we don’t see masses of white people drowning in the Mediterranean while the EU turns a blind eye.
You’re also trying to define racism only as “racial laws” which is an incredibly narrow definition that no sociologist would accept. Structural racism manifests in policies, practices, and institutions - it doesn’t require explicit “whites only” signs to exist.
Regarding Ukrainian refugees versus other refugee groups: initially there was indeed more acceptance based on perceived cultural similarity and yes, race. But as I already mentioned, even Ukrainian refugees are now being scapegoated by politicians in Poland, Hungary and other countries. The pattern is clear - initial acceptance followed by growing hostility.
The European Parliament groupings you mention are irrelevant to my argument. I was clearly talking about national politics where far-right parties have either gained power or significant influence in Hungary, Italy, Austria, Sweden, Netherlands, France and Germany among others.
Your attempt to frame this as “open borders extremism” versus “moderate border control” is a classic false dichotomy. There’s a massive difference between reasonable border management and letting people drown at sea, which is what Frontex does.
I stand by what I said - Europe has deeply ingrained xenophobia, and Americans coming here will discover that too once the novelty wears off. They’ll be blamed for housing problems, job market issues, and changing the culture - just like every other immigrant group before them.
Do I wish there was a better way for people to seek asylum? Absolutely. There was talk about setting up centers in some northern african countries to let people apply without crossing the Med. Don’t know if that happened yet though. Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. And I seriously doubt that Frontex “sends them back to get raped & tortured”. If they knew that was going to happen they’re not allowed to.
Brexit was a Russia sponsored fluke. I’m not saying there aren’t people using migrants as scapegoats for everything, but they’re a minority, but as times gets tougher I get how migrants gets blamed. It’s hard to help someone when you barely got enough for yourself.
About the americans, they would by what’s commonly referred to as “high value migrants”, meaning educated and experienced, someone who can go more or less directly into productive work. That’s the kind of migrant every country on earth wants. Those are the kind of workers that helps grow the economy.
As a continent I think we’re very far from both racist and backwards. Yes, there are those elements among us, but for the most part we’re decent people. We make mistakes and stumble, but we’re generally doing the right thing. I have fatih in us.
The part of brexit is manifestly not true. Brexit is a US invention, the far right from the US banked the whole thing. Case in point, Steve Banon and Cambridge analytica. Allowing US companies to run our digital life is the biggest mistake of the european civilization, and now that civilization is at risk, threatened by a raging jingoistic maniac.
I’d say both. There were absolutely Russian money involved in brexit. By saying this I’m in no way denying US far-right involvement. I don’t think it was state-sponsored from the US though. I 100% believe it was when it comes to Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_Brexit_referendum
I have very little doubt it was state sponsored. There has been ample evidence there is an interest from the US to make the EU a vassal region again, regardless of who is president. Starting with spying on allies with the help of DK to AUKUS, to fast tracking a war in our region to stop our only de facto dependence on them, hydrocarbons, from being made redundant. The EU is leading the world in renewable energy, but we can’t have that, because the only coercive lever after that is direct conflict. In fact, there’s ample evidence Biden and Bojo chose to prolong the UA war with empty promises to Zelensky that are now being paid in blood. The purpose of that is obvious, when you ask qui bono. Putin didn’t want NATO at his door, RU & the US didn’t want UA in the EU, so here we are. Had UA entered the EU, the supply of hydrocarbons from RU and US would have been made redundant enough given UA has reserved estimated to be enough to support the EU energy transition to renewables independently.
Maybe? But there’s no evidence of US-government tampering with the brexit referendum, but there is for the Russian government. I’m not going to defend the US, certainly not currently, but I’d like to see evidence before accusing the US of something. They’ve done plenty of shady stuff, so there’s no shortage of things to blame them for, but so far I haven’t seen any evidence of US state sponsored brexit shenanigans.
I think your view is a bit optimistic - centers in North Africa won’t fix the systemic issues with our border policies. Frontex absolutely does send people back to places where they face torture and sexual violence. They’ve been repeatedly documented performing illegal pushbacks in the Mediterranean and the Aegean.
They’re actively pushing people back to Libya where EU-funded detention centers are effectively torture camps. And Frontex continues illegal pushbacks regularly despite court rulings against them.
There’s extensive evidence of this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/03/libya-migrants-tripoli-refugees-detention-camps
I understand wanting to believe we’re better than this, but the facts don’t support it. The “we’re decent people making mistakes” narrative is comforting but doesn’t hold up when you look at the policies we collectively support through our governments.
About the “high value migrants” thing - that’s exactly my point about how our immigration system works. We welcome people based on economic utility, not humanitarian need. We’ll roll out the red carpet for an American engineer but let Syrian doctors drown.
And this economic utility approach is still fragile - when the economy turns, even the “high value” migrants become scapegoats. Just look at how Brexit campaigns targeted Polish doctors and Eastern European professionals despite their contributions.